RAW ENERGY HOTLINE
SEPTEMBER, 2004
(Continued from Part 6)

Part 1
Part 2
Part 3
Part 4
Part 5

Part 7- More FEEDBACK from Readers

Dear Friends and Readers,

This is the last installment of my September Hotline. Those that have been on my elist for some time know that I usually send out only two or three emails per month. However, I did feel (and hope you agree) that the issues that the Naz interview raised for the raw food community were very important for us to face and explore. I thank all the people who shared their letters, as well as those that shared with me, but did not want to be included in this Feedback section. I learned a lot from the exchange.

Until next time, be blessed in health and all things good, Rhio

October 22, 2004

Below interspersed are some comments by Ric Lambart who has been on a raw vegan diet for 28 years.

... feel free to put my name by my remarks and send it to the people on this list. Sorry I didn't see this message when it first came in. Ric

Naz: Deaths in the Raw-Vegan Movement

Here, in the Eugene area, where I live, a man in the local raw-food support group died about two years ago. He was only in his forties. For two weeks before his death, he'd been telling the leader of that group that he was having bad chest pains, but she just kept telling him, "oh, it's just detox, it's just cleansing."

Jinjee's Note: Even on the raw diet you will still eventually (probably) get old and die. Perhaps in rare cases this can even be because of the diet. We are all so different in so many ways and health is dependent on so many many different factors. You have to be in tune with your body and feel whether the diet is working for you. If it isn't, don't do it! And yes, often complaints like this gentleman's heart can be detox symptoms. However if it is your heart or one of your internal organs that is hurting painfully, get it checked out! The medical institution can be useful for diagnosis!

Ric: I'd agree with this plus add that: DeTox can kill, especially if you are already on the edge of the deep chasm over which we will all eventually have to pass. DeTox is just that. It's a dumping of very, very toxic stuff - it usually feels anything but pleasant, and can be very painful. The pain manifests the toxic passage through the body's organs and can't be laughed away cavalierly. Also, we don't have enough facts here, just David's short summary of the incident. Diagnosis could be helpful, I'd even agree with that, but being in your forties can be pretty lucky for some of us. I had severe angina back in my late thirties, and could have experienced the same fate, but I went slowly into the raw, rawer venue. Not cold turkey after living a toxic life-style for most of my life. I went stage by stage, and that may have allowed my body to slowly rebuild without any severe toxic waste dumping.

Frederic: And he had been into this for a long time?

Naz: Yes, for a long time. He was one of the founding members of the raw-food support group there. His doctor, when he died, told his wife (the man's wife) that her husband had died of starvation. His body just starved to death, even though he was eating raw foods everyday. He wasn't absorbing enough nutrients from it.

Ric: This is another problem area. When we switch to natural eating our body may be very far gone (in it's digestive powers), which would obvioulsy present some serious problems, when unable to digest and obtain the nutrients taken in especially the vital ones. In this case it would seem an intelligent move to slowly rebuild the digestive system, then go into the pure natural dietary. Also, raw foods don't give wild-life perpetual life, they just tend to allow the critters to live out their genetic program's life span more fully. And the pure diet would also tend to give far more strength to the one consuming it. But, one's genetic deck of cards is pretty well set at and before birth. To me, the incident described by David might be useful, but it sure isn't enough to use, at least based on the minimul number of salient facts presented, for any sort of final conclusion. Common sense just can't be thrown out the door, without risking the chance of missing the mark completely.

Naz: I was telling that story to a woman in Santa Monica who is part of a raw-food support group there, and she responded by saying: "Oh yeah, we recently had a guy who died the same way, and he wasn't very old either. The doctor said that his body just starved for lack of nutrients." Then I was telling another woman in Florida who's member of a raw food support group there the same story about both these people, the one in Eugene and the one in Santa Monica, and she responded by saying, "Oh yeah, we've had two die that way."

Ric: Yes, most interesting, but where are the facts, the details. This is ALL hearsay. It's, in fact, no more than gossip, in my book.

Jinjee's Note: Would like to hear the specific stories. Remember, a lot of people come to the raw foods diet because they are already very sick, often terminally ill, as a last hope, and sometimes too late. If you get so skinny on the raw diet that you are starving you may need to include some Celtic Sea Salt and Cold Pressed Olive, Hemp and Flax oils in your diet, or a greater variety of fruits and vegetables, fatty fruits, water, and germinated nutmilks. The raw diet is the most nutrient dense diet on the planet. It should not lead to dying of starvation! These people may have been doing one of the many extreme fanatical versions of the raw diet in which they ate either no fruits or no vegetables, no oils or nuts, no water, or just not enough variety or quantity of good quality fresh organic food.

Ric: A good point here: Variety. Not just the fabled "spice-of-life," but rather a necessity in our raw dietary. Too many raw foodists are almost into mono-dieting, and I can't believe that's very rational. After all, no one REALLY knows exactly what we need, let alone just when we need it, so why not stay on the common sense track, mathematically, and spread our intake as widely as we can. I've always advocated the need for lots of variety in our diets, simply because there's not exant anyone who REALLY knows exactly what we need, as I said, or when we need it. Statistically, if we spread around our dietary intake, we are bound to simply encounter what we need, whatever that may be. We're all different, so what's my need, may not be yours at all.

Rhio: It's hard to comment without knowing the details of any particular situation... like flying blind. I agree with Jinjee that there is no diet that is more nutrient dense than the raw/live food diet. Perhaps, as she states, the people were doing the more restricted versions of the diet. I have seen many people become more and more restrictive with the diet, to their detriment. They keep eliminating food after food for one reason or another, until they are eating only a few things. I believe this is a mistake. I promote eating a WIDE variety of foods from all categories except meat, fish and dairy. I also recommend foraging for or growing some wild vegetables (usually called weeds) and including some of those in the daily diet.

Ric: AMEN! Good observations by Rhio. I heartily agree and advocate the same approach.

Rhio: How would the doctor know that the person starved to death for lack of nutrients? Did he do some tests? If so, what kind of tests did he do? Or did he just voice his prejudices when he learned that the person was on a raw diet?

Ric: This could all too easily be exactly the scenario, for all we know.

Rhio: Many people have Celiac Disease and don't even know it. In this disease, gluten foods, like wheat, barley and rye, create a situation in the intestines which prevents nutrients from being absorbed.

Ric: Very true. For instance: I love unsteamed whole rolled oats soaked in water, but they do NOT like my digestive track - or vice versa. They taste great, they're raw as raw can be, but they blow me up like a balloon. Why? Simple. They don't digest.

Naz: Raw Vegan Fallacy #1: Protein

The more I got into looking into this, the more I found that a lot of the things that get preached in the raw-vegan movement just aren't true. One has to do with protein. There is a real issue with getting enough protein. On a cooked food vegan diet, you tend to eat a lot of beans and grains, and that is a complete protein. But if a person is a raw-vegan, beans and grains would be sprouted, and most people don't eat such a large amount of sprouts. Even if they do, as soon as you begin to sprout, the protein is converted into something else. So the protein content goes down. The vitamin content goes way up when you sprout, so there are some good things about sprouting. The vitamin content increases, but the protein decreases. So on a raw diet, you think you're getting your protein from the little bit of fermented seed cheeses, but you can't eat very much of that because it really clogs you up. So over a period of several years, people become really protein deficient.

Ric: Therefore the need for some nut and seed intake, right? But, the nut thing has become a problem over the last year or so, especially with that once excellent nut, the almond. They are almost all "cooked" now (pasteurized) in order to protect the grower/processor from being sued for contamination. The only way I've found to get viable (live) almonds now, is to get them from a small orchardist, who sun dries them. Otherwise they're run through a kiln to dry and pasteurize them into denatured protein - not good. Walnuts seem to be OK now, but they're pretty acid forming, so that's downer. The once fabulous pistachio has gone the same way as have the almonds, sad to say.

Jinjee's Note: I believe that it is very easy to buy into the protein myth which thousands of vegetarians, vegans and raw foodists have proven to be false. For instance my husband Storm has not consumed animal products in over 30 years and is not deficient in any way. You can go to www.thegardendiet.com/storm.html to see his photos. Mothers milk is 2.2% protein and babies double in size in six months consuming nothing but mother's milk. Fruit is also 2.2% protein. Vegetables and nuts have even more protein. According to articles I found on the FDA website, cooked protein turns into free radicals that cause cancer. It has also been proven that you don't need to eat all the amino acids at one sitting for a "complete protein". Most fruits and vegetables do contain all the amino acids making a complete protein.

Ric: One thing that seems to be overlooked in these commentaries: The need to remain over-all healthy. Food is not the ONLY requisite for true health. There are a goodly group of other requisites, too, as all good Hygienists know. That air, water, and PLENTY of exercise and not too much emotional stress are absolute requisites of optimum health - to mention but a few. We can take in great raw foods, have our mental machinery all screwed up, and end up losing the goodies we've eaten because our mind has disabled our physical machinery - including our digestive mechanism.

Naz: Longevity of Vegans

The biggest study on the true mortality rates of vegetarians and vegans was published recently, and the results were partly shown in Ahimsa Magazine, which is a vegan magazine. Even though the results were not good for the vegan movement, that vegan magazine said in an editorial that they felt that in fairness to the readers, they needed to publish the information.

The information was that even though we've been led to believe that vegans live longer, they actually live less long than many other dietary categories. Vegans have a high incidence of degenerative brain diseases - Alzheimer, dementia, and things of that nature.

Ric: I'd sure like to see that study. Some of these studies are more than flawed. After all, look at the MASSIVE study done in China - the one noted in John Robbin's Diet for a new America. The longest living peoples are certainly vegetarians, maybe not vegans, but the fact that veggie folks live so much longer than others, has to mean something significant, wouldn't you think? And, again, many raw fooders are so overly focused on their eating habits, that they miss out on all sorts of otherwise crucial health factors in their myopia over foods.

Naz: In the past, all of the positive statistics about vegans, all the "less this" and the "less that," all the good things that were taught in books like John Robbins's Diet for a New America - all those statistics weren't from studies from large groups of people who actually died. They were just extrapolated information. It was like, John Robbins would say, "Okay, fat is one of the things that cause heart disease. Vegans are eating 30% less fat, therefore they will die of 30% less heart disease" It was all theory. As it turns out, there are certain things that are good about the vegan diet - such as less fat, less cholesterol - but the problem is that there are certain deficiencies in the diet, even in the cooked-vegan diet, that actually cause vegans to have more of certain serious diseases, especially brain-related ones, because it's all having to do with the central nervous system.

Ric: Disagree. Yes, there was some speculation there, but the China study was very well formulated and objectively conducted. It was massive in its size, so should bear far more weight than the numerous other tiny studies done over the years by other researchers. The fat thing may have been a bit speculative, but hardly out of logical bounds. And, there was a distinct, and growing difference in the city and country dwellers in China, if you recall. The city folks consumed much more animal protein/fat in their lives, than did their fellow citizens in the countryside.

Jinjee's Note: Insurance companies will give you lower rates if you are vegetarian, and even lower if you are vegan. If anyone has done their homework on health and longevity statistics it would be the insurance companies.

Ric: Now this makes sense. REAL actuarial data are what count. It's been well known for a long, long time, for instance, that Seventh Day Adventists (they admit to only about 50% of them being vegetarian) FAR outlive other Americans - and they experience FAR fewer degenerative diseases - and these folks (with isolated exceptions, of course) are cooked food vegetarian, too.

Fred: Are there other studies to back up your claim that vegans live less long than meat eaters?

Naz: See, over the years, I've read many studies that have caused me to come to this conclusion. But I've also spoken to many experts, such as Gabriel Cousens, who have clinical experience with vegans. But it goes back to the 1990's, when Vegetarian Times, which is a major magazine, published the results of a study that was geared to just women, and tried to see which ones lived longer, between meat eaters, lacto-ovo vegetarians and vegan women. It turned out that the lacto-ovo vegetarians lived the longest, the meat eaters lived the next longest, and vegans lived the least long. And that was in Vegetarian Times approximately in 1990. So as the years went by and studies were done, it just became sort of overwhelmingly obvious that a lot of the things that we believe in the raw-food movement and the vegan movement literally aren't verifiable by science, and science actually discredits a lot of these claims.

Ric: And, I question the "authority" that produces these allegedly "scientific" studies, big time. The only way to believe these studies, is to study them thoroughly to verify their objective standards and protocols. Most of them are funded by vested interests.

Naz: The good news is that a vegetarian diet, which includes some dairy and eggs, appears to be very healthy. That's the good news, is that we can be healthy vegetarians. It's extremely questionable whether very many of us can be healthy vegans. It might be possible, but that it doesn't seem possible for the majority. The majority of vegans are actually not healthy.

Ric: Again: I have to state that my 28 years being all raw - and longer than that being completely Vegan - have given me the sharp view that MOST folks get into this dietary because they have some very serious health issues in the first place. I had some, myself, although that's not why I happened to clean up my killing dietary habits. And, again, I evolved into the all raw routine quite slowly, too.

Jinjee's Note: Naz is perfectly correct in saying you can find articles to prove either side of any story. You can read scientific medical journals online and you'll find plenty of conflicting evidence. There just isn't enough true non-biased scientific study being done in the field of nutrition. Who would fund such studies? Organic farmers? Big business doesn't benefit from the simple truths of health. My personal belief is that The Creator put everything here that we need to be totally 100% naturally healthy without needing to use or kill any animals.

Ric: I already made similar comments to this undeniable fact, so I agree with her observations. If you are ever in the court game (I've spent too much of my own life in that theater venue!), and game it is, you know that you can find an "expert authority" to argue your side, just as can the opposition find the same caliber of "expert authority" to argue theirs. "Science IS and has always been, "FOR SALE," most unfortunately.

Rhio: The study that Naz cites in Vegetarian Times was comparing vegans with the other two groups, but it wasn't comparing raw food vegans specifically. I think there may be a huge difference between a raw food vegan and a cooked food vegan's health. I have not seen the article but it doesn't seem to be a study that applies to the raw food diet.

Ric: Excellent point. From a completely unscientific point of view, from my own subjective observations over many, many years, cooked food Vegans and even vegetarians, are, as a group, not at all to be envied for their primal quality of health.

Naz: B-12 Deficiency

Most vegans are not getting enough B-12. It's very important to take a B-12 supplement if you're on a vegan diet, and a lot of vegans don't. A lot of the sources vegans have believed they were getting their B12 from actually aren't good. For instance, the blue-green algae, the spirulina, sea vegetables, all of those things are listed as having a lot of B12, but studies have shown that they're analog B12, which can't be utilized by the human body. Analog B-12 competes for receptor sites with the real usable B-12. It results that eating any of those things, it's not only that you're not getting the B-12 you think you're getting, you're actually going to get less, because the analog B-12 clings to the limited numbers of receptor sites in the body for real B12 - and then real B-12 can't cling to it, because it's already taken by the analog B-12. So, people who have been eating those things in the vegan movement thinking that it's a natural source of B12 and that they don't need to take a B-12 supplement, become very B-12 anemic.

Ric: To me, this topic has already been beat to death. No comments from me.

Naz: Gabriel Cousens, a holistic M.D., has become very concerned about the B-12 issue and is now publishing the results of new research. He says that it's been demonstrated that 80% of vegans become seriously B-12 deficient. He then lists the problems that can be related to B-12 deficiency, and it's an incredible list of problems.

Jinjee's Note: I believe that supplements are far inferior to foods. Hippocrates said "Make Food your Medicine". If you simply can't eat food, then take supplements. Otherwise, all the nutrients you need can be found in fresh fruits and vegetables, including B12. B12 is being found in more and more fruits and vegetables. According to Joel Robbins, M.D., N.D., D.C., PhD in Bio Chemistry, author of "Eating for Health and Wellness" B12 is found in:

Alfalfa leaves
Bananas
Comfrey leaves
Concord grapes and raisins
Ginseng
Hops
Mustard greens
Plums and prunes
Sprouts
Sunflower seeds
Wheatgrass

A very prominent healer was defending his selling of supplements, even though I wasn't attacking him about doing so. His final argument was that "you don't just need health, you also need wealth and I have 200 clients that buy $100 worth of vitamins a month". I think he was looking for us to give him some kind of approval to make him feel good about doing this. To tell you the truth, I really don't know enough about science, medicine, and the human body to say whether supplements are good or bad. When I don't know something I always go with nature. Therefore I don't take supplements or sell them.

Ric: I like Jinjee's thinking, here. All our sciences are supposedly "Natural Sciences," since they study nature and its laws. That's all that science really is. So, why not look deeply into the dynamics we're able to discern out there in "nature," which seems to be what Jinjee is doing. Look at what happens in nature, apply our objective rationality, our objective talent, and come to conclusions, being careful to set aside our biases (and we all have them). This way we are, in fact, being scientific, in our own way. There are people doing this sort of good thinking every day - and some of these folks are coming up with innovations and inventions that literally knock off some of the largest most well-funded of corporate giants. Formally trained scientists have no monopoly on the TRUTH, in fact their built-in biases and educational prejudices often get in their way and prevent them from uncovering what they officially seek: the TRUTH. Look, for example, at Permaculture. It is likely the most advanced form of agriculture, yet it was developed primarily by Bill Mollison, whose only degrees are those bestowed upon him by way of honorary recognition of his achievements. In fact, he mentioned to a news reporter many years ago, in L.A., when I was at a meeting he held, while in the States, that he was glad he wasn't brain-washed by a formal education - or he'd likely not have developed Permaculture - at all.

Jinjee: Storm hasn't taken any supplements in over 30 years. Some people do seem to be helped by them. It is a personal decision. It could be that people who don't have access to fresh organic produce year-round might be helped by high quality supplements. Pharmanex is one of the supplement companies who grow all the plants organically and extract the nutrients intact for proper chelation and better absorption. It made so much sense I almost went in for them until my un-supplemented family scored much higher on their scan tests of anti-oxidants in the tissues than those who took these high quality supplements regularly. This scanner was designed by Pharmanex to measure overall health and nutrient levels. There may be better supplement companies too. I haven't researched this as I don't intend to take supplements. I just happened to meet some Pharmanex promoters at a healthfood store and took their test.

Rhio: B12 becomes available in food through the action of bacteria that grows on or is present in/on food. Since a family of yeasts and bacteria is what causes foods to ferment, B12 would be present in fermented foods, as well as the foods that Jinjee mentioned. B12 as well as other vitamins of the B-complex family are produced in a well functioning intestine.

Ric: Rhio is on target here, in my opinion. The key is in her last words: ". . .in a well functioning intestine." If your gut is disfunctional, how are you going to get what you need from your food - raw, or otherwise?

Rhio: Some have said that Vit. B12 is produced in the intestine past the point where it can be absorbed. I'm not sure I believe that to be true, but small amounts of Vit. B12 are also secreted directly into the duodenum (first part of the intestine) from bile. Dr. Robert Young says in his book Sick and Tired? that as long as you have plenty of friendly bacteria (probiotics) Vit. B12 is synthesized.

We are living in an age where everything is washed and over sanitized, but if we were living closer to the earth, like on a farm or even if we cultivated a backyard vegetable garden, we could occasionally eat our veggies straight from the garden without washing them and that should, with the right soil environment, provide us with some B12.

Ric: Again, I'd like to insert that my observations have been the same as Rhio's here. We are often TOO sterile, and have missed out on some important bacterial and other trace factors as a direct result. I'd suggest that such a conclusion is the result of using one's good common sense.

Rhio: Because B12 is so important, I suggest getting it checked out if you are concerned about it. I don't think most raw food enthusiasts would have a problem IF they ate a wide enough variety of foods, including fermented foods, seaweeds and pollen. Pollen, is from flowers but it is collected by the bees on their feet, so methinks there may be some bacterial action there which provides B12.

Ric: Another interesting thought. Never thought of that one, myself.

Naz: Vegetarianism Versus Veganism

Where I come out on all this, is that when we look at our own family lines, most of us have not had a vegetarian ancestor. The vast majority of us, living in America, have not had a single vegetarian ancestor, going back all the way to this almost countless line of generations. And certainly, there was not a vegan in that family line. Therefore, that's a pretty radical thing to do, if you look at it that way, to all of a sudden become a vegan, when no one in your genetic line has been a vegan, going all the way back to perhaps thousands of years ago. We've been eating animal products for all that time, so the human system is expecting to get nutrients that way.

Jinjee's Note: Yes, we have adapted to eating meat and dairy. But the way we have adapted is to have brought into being a society in which death by disease is normal and expected.

Rhio: Going back to our vegetarian or vegan diet is NOT a shock to the system; RELIEF would be a better description. It's NOT radical to eat as nature intended no matter how long we have flaunted her laws. Of course there is detox and adjustments to contend with in the beginning but it does NOT take generations to adapt. We don't have to evolution into our... original diet...

Ric: Rhio's got my vote.

Jinjee: My own experience with his diet has produced only incredible results, healing, weight loss and improvement. Many people have also reported amazing healing, weight loss and well-being on Storm's version of the raw diet. However even people who have experienced nothing but good from the raw diet will sometimes be so scared by an article such as Naz's interview that they will abandon the raw vegan diet completely and go back to a bad cooked food diet with all its related health problems. When do we start trusting our own experiences?

September 15, 2004

Dear Rhio,

Thanks so much for your concern. The hurricanes have been narrowly missing us here in south Florida and aside from losing some good fruit a little early all is well.

The Andressohn's case is still pending. Yes no trial as of yet. Dr. Flora Van Orden who worked with Dr. Ann Wigmore for 25 years bailed them out with a credit card after 99 days in jail. Ever since they have been under house arrest. Their chidren in state custody being fed cooked foods and getting sick for the first time in their lives. No contact not even phone calls are allowed. This has gone on for about a year now. Being indigent they were appointed lawyers by the state. These lawyers blocked every defense angle we raised by doing nothing. Finally an attorney has agreed to take the case, cut his fees in half and we are raising money to pay the lawyer and thier legal expenses.

I have transferred a video of Dr. Ann Wigmore onto DVD, cleaned up the sound, edited and split it up into 5 chapters. A 6th chapter is new footage of Dr. Flora giving an addendum and speaking about wild edible weeds. Anyone who gives $100 dollars or more will recieve one of these DVD's professionally packaged by Living Food Films and David Haylock a raw foodest in Miami.

For a donation of $150 dollars I would include a copy of my CD Brand New Day as a way to raise money for them.

The trial is scheduled for January and it has the potential to be very political and set a precedent for raw food lifestyles. We now know the facts of the case. The baby had two birth defects making the state's case of manslaughter by malnourishment unprovable in a court of law. Depositions of over 40 people by the prosecution could not disclose any negative witnesses either. The state is down from 50 years to time served and probation if they will just take a plea and admit some guilt. They will not accept as they only guilty of depriving the children of all of societies illnesses associated with a cooked food diet! In the autopsy, suspected thymus tissue was microscopically analyzed and turned up negative! The medical examiner took tissue from the area where a thymus normally would be and could not find a trace of thymus. To say that raw foods could atrophy a thymus beyond a microscopic trace is beyond ludicrous. Any child born without a thymus will die regardless of the diet. Most die within 2 months. If anything the raw foods diet allowed this baby to carry on for 51/2 months suggesting superiority in my opinion. When the baby had trouble breathing the parents called 911. The ambulance arrived with a policeman who told the parents they could not accompany their child to the hospital. Lethal doses were given the child in an effort to save her. Then the police arrive to give the bad news and immediately start interrogating the parents. This evidence was thrown out of court as they did not read the miranda rights to them. On record is 4 different weight for the baby. The picture of an emaciated child released to the media is one of the child after all the drugs had been given her and perhaps several months after death. they attempted to have the baby cremated to dispose of the evidence before a proper defense could be mounted.

All those who home school, are vegetarian, vegan or raw foodist, or just feel the state dictating what one has the right to feed and raise and teach a child is wrong should take an interest in this case. We all need to get behind them. They have valiantly held out living under house arrest and patiently waiting for justice and the powers of truth to vindicate them.

I thank you for your interest and any help or suggestions you could give!

I appreciate all you do for raw foods and have been reading your fielding the tough questions in your newsletter. You are amazing and I send you much love and many blessing of peace!

Tim Tye
timco77@bellsouth.net

Dear Tim,

Thank you for bringing us up to date with the information on the Andressohn's. A very sad situation, but we would like to be part of the remedy in some way, so to increase the value of your $100 or $150. package, we would offer to donate 100 of my books (Hooked on Raw) to the project. I will do a special hotline on the situation and let's see if we can get the family back together.

Please send the family our blessings and we will hold a positive thought for them in our mind/soul.

We're so glad that your house and farm were spared in the recent hurricanes!!

With blessings and peace,

Rhio and Leigh

September 12, 2004

Greetings Rhio,

May this find you well and thriving in your world. I am well, enjoying my life here in Ojai.

I appreciate your commitment to the process and how you languaged your perspective on the Fred/Naz issue. I agree with you completely.

Do you personally know Jinjee and Storm? Have you met them, or only through online contact?

Many Blessings of well being to you,

Chakra Earthsong

Dear Chakra,

I hope to meet them and you on my trip to CA in Janury-February, 2004

With blessings,

Rhio

September 16, 2004

Dear Rhio,

This is Rick Kump, remember the young guy you met in Florida and let stay in your apartment last year in New York :-D?

I wanted to let you know that I'm following your work and rooting for you. I've been 100% raw for well over 2 years now, and I'm setting a great example at my university. My main issue is still animal rights, and promoting veganism (along with connecting everything to God and spirituality), but thank you (and Jinjee!) so much for this response to that letter. Naz's letter was based on one man's experience. I'd like to meet him to prove to him the success of a teenager who went on raw foods against his parent's wish and STILL thrives on the lifestyle. Granted, 2 1/2 years may not be that much for some, but it's a LONG TIME for me, and I don't see myself turning back. Always moving forward.

I think it's good to remind your readers that being raw is not about being "RAW." It's not about the label, it's about the health and peace of mind.

Peace and God bless you and your work! You're inspiration for my own work for peace and health in the world.

Rick, from Titusville Florida
veganrick@aol.com

PS--Thank you a while ago for the juicer. I make frozen banana ice cream for everyone who comes over to my house. A teenaged neighbor even said "I'm proud of you, Ricky!" HA! There is so much hope for the planet!

September 16, 2004

this is an interesting project and i like what you have done to insert comments as you go along ... and to keep the length user friendly on each installment...

your comments are as i have grown to understand the real vs the not so real are virtually perfect (that is we agree)

the two guys i would like to have an opportunity to add a new layer of comments are brian clement and jordan rubin...i am sure you know brian...DO you know jordan?...i had an interesting raw vs vegan vs veggie vs meat conversation with him and i really wish i had videotaped it...he would do it again and has some interesting remarks on the subject of some of the people who seem to thrive and some who do not on vegan...then there is the blood type book which brian will say is nonsense (he is type O and maybe anna maria too).

... your efforts coupled with your philosophies in general put you in a group of single digit few in this whole debate and need for accurate and CONVINCING and ACCURATE information with testing and numbers and more...it's time for another conversation when you have time...

BACK TO THE INTERVIEW
i personally wonder how the Naz fellow (i do not know either of the guys) ends up with the authority he seems to have laid on here...oh well...

there are a couple of concerning aspects of this entire dialog and its potential effect on the casual reader:

1) i may have been sleeping but i have not yet seen the word "organic" appearing anywhere

2) virtually all the remarks about The "Science" are without footnote or reference and clearly some (many) of the statements are either untrue or make leaps that are illogical (but you see that)

3) some of it sounds like the pre iraq fear program just on the raw subject

nonetheless there is some truth to some of what is being said (isn't there always) and it all needs to be filtered carefully and the science -- real backed-up science -- documented to show what is really going on...[that is my film-in-progress for some years now].

Naz: {referring to Gabriel Cousens} He now believes that problems with B-12 in the vegan movement are much more severe.

this is a big and true one...

see ya!!

david haylock
living food films
www.livingfoodfilms.com
miami

Dear David,

I'm glad you like the project. It HAD to be done... but took a lot of work!! Yay!

Nazariah, as I understand it (I could be mistaken), is the head of the Essene Church in USA. Maybe that is why what he says carries so much weight. The Essene's were an ancient culture, who were raw foodists.

With blessings,

Rhio

September 13, 2004

Dear Rhio,

I just wanted to take this opportunity to say thanks so much for the great job you are dong keeping the raw community up with what's going on politically in government, as well as with this outstanding look at Naz's controversial interview on the B12 question. It is very confusing to the public when they attend a festival with different speakers (all with their own agenda) or read an article where we, in the raw community, disagree. Of course we can not agree on all the aspects of something as personal and varied as diet, so I try to focus on what we have in common. What you are doing with this article is great because it offers a balanced approach and helps alleviate fear.

I just want you to know how much I respect you and appreciate your approach.

Love and Blessings,

Cherie
Living Light...
Creating a global community,
Built on love and acceptance,
With raw food and conscious living at its foundation.
www.RawFoodChef.com

September 29, 2004

Hello, beautiful ladies!

Thanks for your passionate discussion with naz.

We are so far from natural I don't know if we'll ever figure it out with our minds, but when we listen to our bodies, they lead us to raw foods, don't they? I FEEL good on raw. And that's my test.

I thought naz's idea about evolving out of the meat diet to raw food was humorous.

Here is an article someone sent me about the evolution of diet from hunter-gatherer to farming. I don't think we ever made it to hunter or farmer -- I think we are naturally fruit/greens people. :)

Best wishes in all you do!

Love,

Patricia Robinett
Eugene, Oregon

Rhio: I couldn't figure out how to get the PDF (article) she sent me linked here. Anyone know, please send instructions. Thanks.

In a message dated 9/12/2004 8:58:18 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Sharon writes:

{In regards to the quote in Part I}

Interesting point, I think everything these days is geared towards the ears and eyes but more so for the ears. Look at all the types of stimulation that's been developemented in the past 2 decades. Boom boxes, cell phones, gameboys bells and whistles have gotten louder, the noise from the subway doors and announcements have a higher pitched tone. What else? Asprin sales are up over 1000% in quantity of production due to worse headaches. Extra strength doesn't cut it anymore, people need 2. Get my point? Hope all is well with you. Nice to recieve something from you. It's been quite a while. I think the last time I received something from you was when my friend Bill Milmoe came to town back in March. Hmm.

Take care.

Sharon

Dear Sharon,

You are very right, but Fred Allen was a comedian, radio variety show host from the 1940s and I thought the quote was hilarious... we really need to laugh... especially in today's political climate.

I don't know why you haven't been receiving my emails. I had a July Hotline and I also sent something out in August. You can see the July Hotline at my website. The August email was about Vitamin B12 and how the emissions from catalytic converters in cars are depleting Vit. B12 in humans. The article is on the website - it's still in the What's New? section.

Hope everything is splendid.

With blessings and peace,

Rhio

September 13, 2004

You know Rhio, after I chose to send that e-mail to you, I wondered why I felt a need to even write it. I really thought about it. I thought for a moment, who is Fred Allen? I had a feeling it was someone who wasn't around anymore so I called my parents. They jarred my memory at that point. I told my father the quote and he cracked up. It was at that point that I subtly lightened up a bit, only a bit. I think the need in me had to do with only wanting to find some outlet to vent my frustration at that trend. I have thoughts and idea in my head and I often find it challenging to get them out or even have people interested in hearing them. I suppose I saw an opportunity and took it. I apologize for the selfishness, but I also thank you. I became a better person for it. As for seeing the humor in it, I really do.

It's always lovely to have your words and voice grace my home be it through the www, music, or even in person. Thank you for responding.

Sharon

Dear Sharon,

You weren't selfish at all. You were only pointing out the additional truth for this generation and I absolutely agree with you.

With blessings,

Rhio

September 13, 2004

I am so grateful to see what you wrote here!

Quote - Rhio: "I seriously doubt that the raw food diet could cause a shortage of protein. More problems are created in a body by too much protein than too little. Dr. Schnitzer of Germany has written extensively about this in many of his books. All fruits and vegetables are LOADED with amino acids, and as most of us know, amino acids are the building blocks of protein. When a seed, bean or legume is sprouted it does not diminish its protein, (as Naz suggests) instead the protein is broken down into its simpler amino acid form. If a person eats meat or dairy, the body must first break down the protein in these products to amino acids before they can be utilized. The body builds thousands of different kinds of protein out of different formulations of amino acids. There is no such thing as an incomplete protein - this is simply a myth created by the meat and dairy industries who profit from people believing their propaganda. The body has an amino acid pool from which it draws to build proteins at any time. Unless a body is starving to death, it will always have amino acids to build the proteins it needs. The body also recycles 70% of its protein waste."

Thank you! We live in a world of almost universal misdiagnosis, even at autopsy time.

Best,

Elchanan

September 15, 2004

Rhio,

This is the best article I have ever read on the subject of a raw, vegan, life food diet. Your comments and Jinjee's comments provided me with the needed insight to go 100% raw, vegan, life food (wild or organically grown, low-glycemic, low starch, balanced with vegan raw oils). I feel it really is the optimum diet for ALL of humanity. Each individual must however fine tune her/his daily food selection and recipes selection. As you know, cooking never really helps food be better. We didn't evolve on cooked food.

I have personally felt so much better on raw, vegan, life food but have desperately clung to cooked comfort food in the evenings much to my dismay every morning afterwards -- like having a hang over. Jinjee is brilliant in her knowledge of life food. ... however Naz has very valid points about some body types (like mine) that are already naturally thin, have much more of a challenge going 100% raw because their digestion system is weak from a lifetime of cooked food, meat and milk. They simply just need to drink green, balanced vegetable juices from a juice extractor and blends from a Viti-mix with a couple of delicious raw, vegan dinner recipes perhaps warming the food to 105 degrees for comfort.

Supplements: You had excellent thoughts on taking supplements. No one knows for certain yet but here is an idea -- With the addition of a few well thought out food based supplements and super foods, it may be possible to improve health beyond a purist diet of wild and organically grown land vegetables, seeds and fruits. Just a thought. I take food based B-12, B-6, folic acid and powered sea vegetables (marine minerals) from David Jubb. Also a few super foods and Hawaiian spirulina. I know many raw food speakers and advocates and your kind views about them and the industry are very accurate and well said.

Best Regards,

Jose

September 15, 2004

Rhio

Fred refused to print the article by Gabriel that was in direct response to this article. The article can be found at www.treeoflife.nu/ewellness.html. I can send you the word format of this article if you need it.

Note we sell B12 supps that are produced in a lab. Also when the effects of a B12 deficiency are apparent nerve damage has been done that is very difficult to correct.

Much Love
Thank You

Philip Madeley
Tree of Life Cafe
PO Box 928
771 Harshaw Road
Patagonia
AZ 85624
520 394 2589 ext 254
cell 520 604 6139
cafe@treeoflife.nu
www.treeoflife.nu/cafe.html

September 15, 2004

Dear Rhio -

how beautiful to receive a newsltr again from you on health! I feel it's been so long... not that I don't love your politics, I do, but I learn so much from you when you write about health. I wish so much I had your knowledge and experience - the only raw fooder I ever met was my food coop friend Pat Mezzullo living down the road from me in Brooklyn. I've immediately added Jinjee's words to http://eatsprouts.com/diet.html.

... Thanks million for including me in the latest issue. I'm very grateful.

love - Val

September 28, 2004

Comments interspersed from Tim Tye - email: timco77@bellsouth.net

Naz: Many children who are being raised on a raw-vegan diet are suffering various nutritional deficiencies that affect them later in life.

Tim: The same or much worse can be said about a child raised on cooked foods. The fact is everyone is nutritionally deficient however raw food children have tested less deficient than cooked food children. Why the double standard? Why not examine the problems with cooked food and formula? Just because it is the norm of society does not make raising children on cooked foods the right thing or the best thing to do. Why don't you ask someone who has successfully raised three generations of raw food children about it? If you do not know who that is, apparently you have not really researched what you are speaking of. You are so quick to point out alleged problems without properly researching the concept. Are you a raw foodest? Have you ever raised a child on raw foods? You have no business speaking about something you have no experience with! Why are there so many overweight cooked food children with diabetes, heart conditions, and asthma if cooked foods is so good for a child?

Naz: And even if a person believes that perhaps a child can be raised successfully on a raw-vegan diet, they owe it to their child to research the issue before attempting to actually raise the child as a raw-vegan.

Tim: Even if a person believes that perhaps a child can be raised successfully on a cooked-food diet, they owe it to their child to research the issue and compare it with alternatives like the raw food diet to see which really is healthier. They owe it to their child to really find out about the ills of cooked food before forcing that on the child. They need to look at their own life and their own illnesses that resulted from being raised on cooked foods and decide if they want to put their child through that hell! They need to get motivated to make a change for the better and do the more challenging thing like explore the possibilities of raw foods and talk with those who are currently successful at raising raw children. They need to find out why people have switched to raw foods and what illnesses were remedied by switching. People have children all the time with no research what so ever. Who are you to assume that a parent wanting to raise their child on raw foods does not do research? Of course they do. It is a very different approach and therefore takes much thought, planning and effort. It is far easier to give a child formula and follow directions on the label than it is to make baby food fresh each day with wholesome organic hand picked ingredients. How many parents giving a child formula ever read the labels much less understand what each word means and/or do research on every listed ingredient? Do you have any idea what preservatives do to a child? Do you have any idea what pesticides do to a child? How many parents go to the trouble to buy organic baby food even if it is cooked?

Naz: I know friends of the family of the infant that died recently in Florida, and they tell me that even the older children in that family were emaciated and looked like Nazi workcamp inmates.

Tim: The Andressohn family of which you were speaking of yet apparently did not know their names, have no "friends" who would make such outrageous comments. I actually met these children myself and they are petite just like their parents. The children only weighed - a pound to 3 pounds less than the standard for a cooked food child of the same age. They were so healthy they never had to go to a doctor and had no obesity problems either I might add. They never had colic, headaches, fevers, pneumonia, asthma or bronchitis as is so common among cooked food children. They just looked thinner than all the other fat children we are used to seeing. Plump children are malnourished as well. Just because the food they are given swells them up does not mean they are properly nourished and truly healthy. They by no means looked like Nazi work camp inmates nor were they emaciated and you should be assumed of yourself for repeating such outrageous hearsay about the lives of these wonderful children when you yourself have not seen them in person. What gives you the right to comment so absurdly?

Has anyone even asked to see any pictures of the children before all this happened? I looked into the whites of their bright wide-open carefree eyes and saw the most content and quick learning children I have ever seen. They were not destined to be football players but they could name every fruit tree in my yard and tell me why they like them so much. I wonder if you could do that? The oldest child in kindergarten age at the time was reading in the second grade level. Even the DCF workers assigned to monitor the children?s progress talked about how intelligent the children are. If you could have seen their skin and the whites of their eyes and the brightness and life force in them you would believe no such lies.

Jinjee's Note: That family fed their children about five different kinds of foods only. Avocado, corn, and three other things. It was a freak situation.

Tim: She rarely if ever gave them corn because it is hard to get organically and difficult to digest. She fed them avocado, parsley, celery, romaine lettuce, kale, collard greens, onions, garlic, tomatoes, cucumbers, bell peppers, and almond milk with fresh coconut water and flax seeds. Bananas, apples, star fruit, oranges, mangoes, Mamay, sapotes, grapefruits, tangerines, leeches, longans, macadamia nuts, pine nuts, broccoli and cauliflower and some carrots just to name a few in no particular order of importance and certainly more than five. In fact such a wide variety of fresh organic foods you probably have no idea how good the diet was. We need help in getting the truth out not perpetuating unsubstantiated rumors!

The first lies in the case said the children had rickets but the radiologist report came back with a clean bill of health on all the children and the court record was corrected to reflect they did not have rickets! After the court ordered the children's diet changed to the Standard American Diet they suffered asthma, bronchitis, and pneumonia for the first times ever in their lives! We need your help to spread truth and not perpetuate the lies. We need your help to get those children back. The parents have been very patient but are grieving to get their children back. The parents were charged with one count of manslaughter and 4 counts of child
neglect and initially looking at a maximum of 50 years. Why do you think the prosecution has reduced that to a plea bargain of time served and probation for manslaughter? Could it be the facts are coming out in favor of the Andressohns and the prosecutor has no case? Could it be that if you charge someone with manslaughter and neglect from dietary malnourishment that the autopsy has to show that there were no other health conditions in order to convict him or her? Could it be the prosecutor had evidence of a birth defect in the autopsy yet charged them anyway? Are you aware that a child born without a thymus gland will die no matter what you feed them?

Why don't you call the parents and talk to them before you continue the negativity? She would be glad to talk to you and tell you the truth. She is on house arrest so you can reach her night and day at your convenience. What if this was you being falsely accused and you had no money to defend yourself properly and had to accept court appointed defense lawyers who are overburdened and must receive their paycheck from the same state that hires the prosecutor? I have their permission to give you their phone number so you can get the facts firsthand. Please help us get the truth out! Please help us end this travesty of justice!

Tim
timco77@bellsouth.net

September 26, 2004

Comments interspersed from Bob Avery

Naz: Yes, like I was indicating, and it's really complex. What we know, based on that article, the research published in the American Vegan that I cited, is that vegans die more of degenerative brain diseases.

Jinjee's Note: This is probably from all the processed TVP and soy products eaten by vegans.

Bob: And/or B-12 deficiency.

Naz: EPA. That's a long-chain fatty acid and one of the things it protects against is depression, which is one of the reasons vegans also have a higher incidence of suicide, clinical depression, anxiety attacks and panic
attacks.

Jinjee's Note: I'd like to see the statistics/evidence for this statement.

Bob: Wouldn't we all? At least he's consistent in not citing his sources! (:-)

Naz: The thing about that is that only people with good digestion can absorb the EPA from the purslane. People with good digestion can do that. But people with less than average digestion can't.

Bob: Or so he claims!

Naz: If a person doesn't have the ethical considerations, then the healthiest diet might be to include some fish.

Bob: I tried that for awhile (raw fish), and my hair mercury levels, which had always tested zero before, went off the charts on the high side. That was over a year ago, and I haven't eaten fish since. It will be interesting to see what my next hair test shows. I do think humans are biologically adapted to eating raw fish, but we've polluted the waters just too much to make that a healthy option.

Manis at Pangaia in Hawaii poisoned himself from eating too much fish also. He had actual symptoms -- slurred speech, mental confusion.

Naz: Well the answer is probably yes, as long as it wasn't fish from a polluted source that has mercury or something like that.

Bob: Well, those sources may be few to non-existent these days.

Rhio: And where would you be finding that source, pray tell?

Bob: Exactly!

Naz: You see, even though we all hear about all the problems with pasteurization, we shouldn't forget the problems with non-pasteurized dairy. For instance, dying of the worst case of diarrhea you can possibly imagine! Because when you drink raw milk, there's the possibility that it's contaminated with E-coli.

Bob: Oh, good grief! Such scaremongering!

Naz: I would say the whole thing, and the reason is because the egg white has the protein, but the yolk has certain fatty acids that seem to be important for the brain.

Bob: They both have the protein, Naz! Look it up!

Naz: It seems to me that a raw-vegan diet, over a period of years, leads to severe nutritional deficiencies.

Bob: I don't suppose the quality of that vegan food enters into it, does it? (:-)

Naz: The diet that you're particularly mentioning there: where is it going to get that long-chain fatty acid that we're talking about? Where is it going to get its B-12, where is it going to get its complete protein?

Bob: What's this complete protein nonsense? A banana has complete protein!

Naz: They'll read in an old fruitarian book that suggests that we could make B-12 in our gut, like some of the animals do.

Bob: We do, or rather our bacteria do, the same bacteria that make it in the other animals. Whether it's enough in today's polluted world is the issue.

Naz: In reality, not one human being has ever been shown to be able to do. That's the science.

Bob: And millions of vegans from India have lived long lives before B-12 supplements were ever invented! That's also science. However, it's been noted that B-12 is becoming more of a problem over there now that industrial pollution is skyrocketing.

Naz: Not one human being has ever been able to demonstrate that they were living off the B-12 in their gut.

Bob: Nor has one human being demonstrated that it doesn't happen. How would you demonstrate that anyway?

Jinjee's Note: According to Dr. Gina Shaw and others, B12 is created in our bodies in our small intestines, which is where many nutrients are absorbed into the blood stream.

Bob: Our entire digestive tract, in fact, from mouth to anus, but mostly in the colon because that's where most of the bacteria are. Of course, that also supposes that we have a source of cobalt in the diet. It has been shown, for example, that corn hybrids fail to take up cobalt from the soil, even when it's present, but heirloom corn varieties do. Most of the food we eat in the US is hybridized. Is that part of the problem? We are getting away from the land and Nature in so many ways!

Jinjee: Storm has had no animal products in over 30 years and is not B12 deficient so either he is manufacturing it in his gut or he is getting it from the raw fruits and vegetables he eats or he doesn't need B12 to be a fully functioning 54 year old who looks 30.

Bob: And if you go to his website, you'll see what an animal he is!

Naz: So I don't know that there are exceptions to the rule, but I acknowledge that there might be.

Bob: Ric Lambart, 23 years raw vegan, now 75, still going strong! I'll bet Naz has heard of him too. I believe they have met.

Naz: You're right, that's usually what happens. However, if one takes their science and shows it to a nutritional scientist, the nutritional scientist will pooh-pooh their argument, and will show the flaws in it.

Bob: Or make up a few of their own!

Naz: It gets as bad that in a lot of these books that are used in the raw-food movement where it lists the amount of protein available in certain food sources, and a lot of those table are just plain old non-accurate.

Bob: This is very funny because there are no accurate tables. The USDA database is as good as we have, and it's totally inaccurate, for the simple reason that its figures are based on averages -- averages of wildly divergent sample analyses because the health and nutritive value of any given plant is no better than the soil it was grown in.

Naz: There are people that believe that there's a whole bunch of protein in watermelon because one of the old raw-food authors used to claim that and put it in his book

Bob: He (TC Fry) was simply referring to the published USDA figures.

Naz: In the raw-food movement the problem is that you have a lot of pseudo-science, which doesn't hold up to the scrutiny of actual science.

Bob: How much "actual" science is really pseudo-science? Half of it? Most of it? All funded by special interests with axes to grind and prejudices to uphold.

Rhio: There are amino acids in watermelon as in every other fruit and vegetable. As far as more concentrated protein, it is in the watermelon seeds, which can be made into a tasty drink.

Bob: I crunch them right along with the watermelon.

Naz: They just tried to discredit me, instead of deal with these realities of nutritional deficiencies in a raw-vegan diet.

Bob: He does a good job of discrediting himself, actually. Maybe he could try to put his material together in a more believable fashion by citing some sources for his most incredulous claims.

Jinjee's Note: Actually, I'm getting lots of letters from people saying that this interview has affected them and that they are considering going off the 100% raw vegan diet.

Bob: There are always people looking for any excuse to indulge their old cravings, those who haven't been on a raw diet very long and are unsure of themselves.

Naz: I want to with a challenge to the raw-vegan movement. Find us one really old raw-vegan. One. I've been in the raw-vegan movement for over twenty years, and I have never met a healthy, really old raw-vegan, who's been on the raw-vegan diet for decades or anything like that. In other words, if by eating the raw-vegan diet, we're going to live to be a 120 years old and be disease free, then how come, when you attend a national raw-food conference, there any isn't old raw-vegans there?

Bob: I don't know how raw and how vegan they were, but there have been a number of centenarian members of the American Natural Hygiene Society (now called the National Health Association) over the years, seemingly quite a large number for an organization of 5,000-10,000 members.

Aside from the fact that many factors other than diet enter into longevity, it's partly a numbers game. I forget what the stats are for reaching 100, but it's somthing like 1 (or a small handful) in a million. That's among the whole population, 99% of whom are, or were, eating cooked, non-vegan foods.

Let's suppose eating only raw, vegan foods for half or more of your life doubles that number, so instead of, say, 5 in a million, it's 10 in a million.

Now what's the raw, vegan population of the US who have been on that diet 50 years or more? 1,000? 10,000? Surely not 100,000! Maybe not even 100. But let's be generous and say that there are 10,000 raw, long-term vegans out there, and 10 in a million (double the usual number) are going to make it to 100. That means that out of 10,000, that would give us exactly 1/10th of a raw vegan making it to 100! If we are again generous and round up, let's say there's one, long-term, raw centenarian out there somewhere in the US.

The next question would be, would we have ever heard of him? Maybe his other health habits are just as good as his diet, and he lives in a rural area, growing his own food, without access to a computer or the internet, and maybe he keeps to himself a lot because of all the ridicule he's had to put up with in his lifetime for his strange diet and other habits.

Last I heard, Morris Blaze of California, was up in his nineties and might be 100 by now. He's all raw, but I don't know whether he is a vegan. Scott Nearing lived to be 100 and was a vegetarian, but may have used some cooked food and dairy. His wife Helen probably would have made it too if she hadn't died in a car accident in her 90s. There are things other than diet that kill people!

Naz: Why has there never been a 90-year-old raw-vegan speaker at any of raw-vegan conferences?

Bob: Maybe he's got better things to do, LOL! Or maybe nobody's asked him.

Naz: Yes, that's my challenge. And even if someone were to come up with one 90 year old raw-vegan, I think that my point is still made, because they'd have to struggle pretty hard to find that one.

Bob: It didn't take me long to think of Morris, and I don't know all that many people so far out of my age bracket.

Naz: I was born in the 1950's, and so, I was shaped by the 1960s, and believe me, in the 1960's, we had raw-food gatherings then.

Bob: Alas! I wish I had known about it back then. I was searching, dreaming, but didn't come across the information and was too fogged out by cooked food and the "this is always the way it's been done" syndrome to think of it on my own. Three million books in the Columbia University library, and I'll bet they don't have any by Shelton, Tilden or Trall!

Naz: Ann Wigmore, before her Shelton - all these people existed back then. All of them died.

Bob: Shelton, the eldest of 13, outlived all but 3 of his younger siblings and was one of those people Jinjee talks about who sacrificed his health burning his candle at both ends to bring the Truth to the masses. He was neither all raw nor all vegan, however, so I'm not sure why Naz brings him up. Ann Wigmore died in a house fire in her 80s. Surely you can't blame the raw, vegan diet for that! It was a strange irony, considering she didn't even use a stove, the cause of most house fires (along with smoking).

Naz: But he's the only example I've heard people give. And then I point out to them that he wasn't a vegan.

Bob: Well, I certainly didn't try to use him as an example! (:-)

Frederic:
1. The raw vegan diet is not a guarantee for health.
2. Eating 100% raw is not necessary for optimal health. If this is practiced, it should be done with careful planning.
3. Every vegan should be taking a B-12 supplement to insure optimal health in the long-term.
4. We shouldn't believe invariably raw-vegan "experts" or what is written in books, because the information is often not accurate.

Bob: #2 was nowhere close to being proved by this interview!

Frederic: I wish to say that I'm personally not convinced that a vegan diet cannot be healthy. I think it depends on each individual. I personally have found benefits in including some animal products in my diet, and many others have found that too.

Bob: I have found during periods of extensive abstention from animal products (except for bee products) over the years that maybe once/month or so on average I have felt as though something was "missing" on vegan foods only, although I have gone as long as two years vegan in a row (again with the exception of bee products). Now I eat raw eggs or flesh more frequently, but it's still not an everyday thing.

I have noticed that women seem to do better all vegan than men in general. Dr. Klaper has noticed that those who were raised vegan from birth tend to do better than those who were not. Perhaps the developing child's body may come to depend on some of the hormones present in flesh and downregulate their body's own production of them in some sort of more or less permanent fashion for some people. Just a guess. I know we are not all alike in our exact needs. There are hereditary factors too.

Jinjee's Note: Storm has in the past taken groups of young gang kids to McDonalds and bought them all hamburgers, then taken them running in the heat of the high-desert summer in the mountains. He enjoys watching them drop like flies along the trail, as he preaches raw food to them.

Bob: Paul Bragg, ever the showman, used to do something similar. He, as a middle-aged adult, challenged a group of college-aged athletes to accompany him in a 20-mile hike across the dessert with their candy bars or whatever they wanted to bring along to sustain themselves for the trek. He would take nothing but distilled water and watch them all drop out along the way.

Jinjee: My Mother pulls out studies showing that smoking may be good for you. I don't know how she finds them, but they are out there!

Bob: That's "science" for you! They are also always coming out with studies showing how good wine, tea, and even chocolate are for you! One must take a look who is sponsoring those studies. "Scientists" are good at designing study protocols that will make their sponsors look good, and the clueless lay press eats it up.

There was an article in the local paper this week by the "health science" editor bemoaning how expensive colon cancer drugs are becoming, and how the "best" ones, the ones that extend life by about 2 years, cost $30,000 to take. Never mind that a few simple dietary changes that cost nothing at all, might even save you money, add up to decades more of life, and a better quality of life at that!

Jinjee: Americans in general are B12 deficient because of over-cooking of meat and pharmaceuticals which rob the body of B12*

Bob: There was also a study that showed auto exhaust depletes the body of B-12. So do mercury amalgam fillings.

Naz: Here, in the Eugene area, where I live, a man in the local raw-food support group died about two years ago. He was only in his forties.

Rhio: It's unfortunate that the raw community, for the most part, does not have the holistic raw food oriented and naturopathic doctors it needs to help guide people should they get in trouble.

Bob: It's also unfortunate that Nazariah never names any names in his diatribe so that the truth of what he is reporting can be verified. Since the guy is allegedly dead, what possible harm could come from naming him -- if he existed in the first place?

His mention of unnamed raw food gurus with panic attacks and other problems has the effect of slandering every raw food guru by implication. If he has something to say, he should name names or not talk about it. He claims he is protecting confidentiality, but he really isn't. He's making people suspicious of ALL raw guru vegans instead of only the guilty parties. And he's not giving them any way to defend themselves when he fails to state whom he's talking about.

Rhio: Natural hygienists do not believe in using oil, and she had not used oil, except occasionally, for many years. The solution to this problem was several tablespoons per day of flaxseed oil and over a period of time her condition normalized.

Bob: I don't believe using oil either, but I do believe in eating nuts and seeds, including flaxseeds. No itchy rashes in almost 12 years raw!

Naz: Yes, for a long time. He was one of the founding members of the raw-food support group there.

Bob: Do you know who he is talking about? Is this a real person? I went to the first Portland raw festival. Would I know him?

Naz: His doctor, when he died, told his wife (the man's wife) that her husband had died of starvation.

Bob: That's what they say about ALL raw fooders, that we're too skinny and dying of starvation.

Naz: I was telling that story to a woman in Santa Monica who is part of a raw-food support group there, and she responded by saying: "Oh yeah, we recently had a guy who died the same way, and he wasn't very old either. The doctor said that his body just starved for lack of nutrients." Then I was telling another woman in Florida who's member of a raw food support group there the same story about both these people, the one in Eugene and the one in Santa Monica, and she responded by saying, "Oh yeah, we've had two die that way."

Bob: What's common here? Never any names mentioned! Just rumors and innuendoes.

Rhio: Perhaps, as she {Jinjee} states, the people were doing the more restricted versions of the diet.

Bob: Or perhaps these are fictional people?

Rhio: I also recommend foraging for or growing some wild vegetables (usually called weeds) and including some of those in the daily diet.

Bob: Hard to do up here in the north in the winter.

Rhio: The body also recycles 70% of its protein waste.

Bob: The figure I remember is 90% (Fit for Life).

Rhio: The study that Naz cites in Vegetarian Times was comparing vegans with the other two groups, but it wasn't comparing raw food vegans specifically. I think there may be a huge difference between a raw food vegan and a cooked food vegan's health. I have not seen the article but it doesn't seem to be a study that applies to the raw food diet.

Bob: Vegans are at risk for B-12 deficiency, and this is a life-shortener, whether the diet is raw or cooked, so I believe Naz is right in this instance.

Rhio: I don't think most raw food enthusiasts would have a problem IF they ate a wide enough variety of foods, including fermented foods, seaweeds and pollen. Pollen, is from flowers but it is collected by the bees on their feet, so methinks there may be some bacterial action there which provides B12.

Bob: I don't eat fermented foods, but I did become B-12 deficient even though eating lots of seaweed, bee pollen, and unwashed veggies. I resorted to supplements or raw animal foods.

Rhio: There are some groups of monkeys that eat all fruit and have no problems, (although I suspect that they eat green leaves too) but we must remember that the modern fruit that most humans eat is picked green and so has not had a chance to ripen on the tree and develop all its nutrient values. In a more health conscious and utopian world community, each family or block would have its own fruit orchard and therefore pick those fruits at the peak of their nutritional value.

Bob: Moreover, I don't feel that temperate fruit is as nutritious as tropical fruit.

Jinjee's Note: I have been present at such testing and the results were quite the opposite. It is known even by the medical community that raw-vegans score outrageously higher in anti-cancer nutrients than other people do.

Naz: Once again, Naz makes assertions with no references to back them up. Researchers did this and that. Well, where, when, to whom, and how can we read the study? Just like the rest of his diatribe.

Rhio: Or it could be that the body is not supposed to absorb the THC and eating raw marijuana protects you from its absorption.

Bob: Or it could be that Naz is making this up too!

Jinjee's Note: I've read around 20 articles that oppose raw food because "many" vegetables are easier to digest cooked. They always mention only one nutrient, lycopene, in one vegetable, the tomato!

Bob: Strawberries and watermelon have way more lycopene than tomatoes do anyway, but again he doesn't cite any sources for his claim that raw lycopene cannot be digested. In fact, it's not even true!

Jinjee's Note: Unfortunately there simply hasn't been any scientific testing on this matter done, so this evidence he speaks of is non-existent.

Bob: Like the rest of his "evidence"?

Rhio: If Naz has the scientific evidence for his claims that a raw vegan diet is risky and dangerous for pregnant women, then he should provide the source, so that we can look it over for ourselves.

Bob: He's presented no sources for ANY of his claims! At least he's consistent. (:-)

September 12, 2004

RHIO -BRAVA as usual.
I shall discuss with you, further, my whole take on that when you come in Jan/feb.
...

I went to the presentation by Dr. Emoto (and catered it raw, vegan) on Friday night. He really addressed how the energy we send into something/anything expecially water changes the vibrational frequencies and he showed proof in details- so everyone involved in this debate now, ought to either read his books (as well as others) and stop spending so much investment in fears and instead invest that energy in practicing love on a cellular level- then they will understand breatharians- the thought that we need food is exactly that- i believe, a thought- based on our belief systems - and our thoughts are determined by our own spiritual vibrations during each lifetime, -which is why some people need to eat meat, some just fish as flesh, and some the way we opt to- raw, vegan. also it is the belief that death exists which has us so scared, if we believed that in order to shed the physical body, we need to let go of the density (which is why people lose up to 50 percent of water in their bodies at the time of their transition), it will explain why some people who shift to raw, vegan diets leave more rapidly than if they kept the denseladen, low vibration "food" intake. going.
i so look forward to continuing this conversation with you when you are here.

must go, as usual, in love and joy,

dorit

September, 2004

Hi, Rhio:

I, too, know of one who told my spouse and I about serious problems he had experienced, yet the next day, at a lecture, he disavowed any such things.

Personally, I have experienced dizziness and near black outs which began about 10 years or more ago after being on a strict Vegan, mostly raw diet, for nearly that many years. I started taking B12 injections until I learned the dangers of ingredients and stopped. I now take vegan B12 sublingual supplements. Previous to that, over a period of 5 to 7 years, I'd been on 3 major water-only fasts and several short ones (during which time I was learning how to heal a large ovarian cyst, and came close to death). Along the way I spent a year as a very strict vegan raw foodist. Dr. Joel Fuhrman, M.D., visited us to do a series of lectures I'd arranged for him. He suggested it could very well be a B12 deficiency (this was before all the info now available on B12 deficiencies), but a test would no longer be able to verify this after I started taking B12 shots and later supplements.

For the past several years I have experienced uncontrollable weakness in my legs. Particularly my left leg around the hamstring area. It usually occurs after sitting for some time, and there was a period we thought maybe sitting at the computer for hours at a time cut off the circulation where back of the leg connects with the end of the chair. I've dismissed that option, as the same thing occurs when I'm away on trips without access to a pc. My left leg still gives way at times, some times more than others, though I have not been able to identify why. There is no pain involved. Just awkwardness and spastic-like movement for a brief few seconds on arising. A few years ago I came across info re: a Study indicating success with such symptoms by taking massive amounts--like 20 - 25 times the normal dose of B12 for several months, and then easing off to a regular dose. I currently do that, although not consistently as I've never got into a routine of taking any kind of supplements, however my symptoms seem to come and go with nothing on which I can put my finger.

Note: The symptoms are not visible to those who don't know me. It could just be attributed to imbalance and awkwardness when arising. And for all practical purposes I appear to be far more healthy and fit than my peers. The "leg" problem has also diminished greatly. After a few years with little exercise (due to a knee injury) I now run a few miles 3 or 4 times a week and bike on alternate days, and recently completed a Triathalon.

My spouse and I have also had a number of dental problems. Whether or not this is attributable to a mostly fruitarian diet for much of our early years as vegans is unknown. Since learning the importance of foliage about 10 years ago, we have greatly increased our consumption of that, and do eat seeds and nuts sporadically, moreso than in our early years.

With increased knowledge I am under the impression a few ounces of seeds or nuts a day or every other day might be helpful, however I think many vegans, persuaded by misinformation they might not be getting enough protein, over indulge on these and put their health in peril just as meat eaters do by consuming too much protein.

Cornell University's Professor Emeritus, Dr. T. Colin Campbell, lead scientist in the most comprehensive study of disease ever conducted, concluded anytime humans consume more than 10% of their diet from concentrated protein, disease starts setting in. Seeds and nuts ARE concentrated protein. Their use, at best, is sparingly, I believe;-)

FWIW;-)
Gerry

October 8, 2004

Dear Rhio:

I'm just starting out on this raw journey (started for about 3 months in 2003), but because I didn't have the knowledge of raw meal preparation (I was primarily juicing), I fell by the wayside.

I had just started getting your newsletter when the NAZ interview came out & read the whole thing (I was familiar with Jingee & Storm by ordering their e-books earlier this year).

I would suggest that Naz go to Rev. George Malkmus' website www.hacres.com and purchase his book: God's Ultimate Way to Health. Rev. Malkmus has the testimony of a couple that fits "Naz's" challenge--that has been raw for about 50 years and they are either in their late 80's or early 90's. The husband recently passed a few months ago-but not before being a vegan that met this challenge--and the wife is still going strong.

QUOTING THE CHALLENGE FROM YOUR PART 7 SEPTEMBER 2004 NEWSLETTER:

"Naz: Yes, that's my challenge. And even if someone
were to come up with one 90 year old raw-vegan, I
think that my point is still made, because they'd
have to struggle pretty hard to find that one."

Even though I'm new at this, I believe that (as the man that responded to Naz) there ARE many that fit his criteria, but they aren't superstars, they won't be on websites and webchats, they won't be at vegan and/or raw food meetings, conferences, etc. They are just plain everyday people. Thanks for listening.

-JCS

PS: Again, not knowing people personally, etc, we as people can never make a challenge that we ourselves are not or have not totally adhered to ourselves (again, this is NOT an implication on anyone as I know no one commenting). I am speaking in generalities. Furthermore, no one, group, etc. can challenge someone else to do research (on the above stated challenge) that they themselves have not done OR they are not willing to initiate themselves.

September 24, 2004

Hello,

again, people are taking the eating and food topic way too serious. The comments are unfriendly. The conversation should not be about Nazariah, the conversation should be about the topics discussed, free from personal involvement.

It is true that Nazariah makes statements that are not correct in some way. for example the B 12 issue. According to Dr. Bruker there is not enough B12 in any food. The B12 that the body needs is produced in the body itself. A healthy body can produce enough, a sick body cannot produce enough. Raw makes the body healthy again.

Ibrahim

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